Speaking Frankly: Film rangefinder cameras superior to DLSRs? Zeiss gives the old battle a new twist

Having attributed the appearance and apparent success of the Cosina-made Voigtlander Bessa 35mm film rangefinder cameras and lenses to the  contrary mind of the company's president, Hirofume Kobayashi, I had not expected a staid, conservative, old school company also to get into the act. However, as you know, Zeiss did just that with the just becoming available Zeiss Ikon camera plus seven Carl Zeiss lenses.

Why? SLRs defeated rangefinder cameras in the 1970s, leaving the superbly made, still highly capable Leica M cameras as technical relics. Autofocus likewise did in 35mm point-and-shoot rangefinder cameras during the same period. It only remained for megapixels in the last few years to obliterate virtually every 35mm and 120 rollfilm camera. But in enthusiastically trashing all this, have we let somethings valuable slip by us?

I ask asked a major planner of the new Zeiss camera and lenses, Dr. Winfried Scherle, Vice-President and general manager in the Camera Lens Division of Carl Zeiss AG to defend the decision. His answers to my somewhat sticky questions, on behalf of Carl Zeiss, did no such thing.

They went on the attack.

Q: With more and more amateur and professional photographers switching to digital cameras, and Leica M sales static if not dwindling, is there really a market for a Zeiss Ikon film rangefinder camera? If so, where and why?

There are demanding photographers who find the images resulting from even the best digital cameras lacking in some aspects. Those who are familiar with the whole gamut of  quality inherent in a very well taken photo may find the Zeiss Ikon to be the most compact and versatile tool of taking such photos.

Images captured on film can be safely stored and reliably retrieved over time spans of more than a century. On the other hand, digitally stored data are often subject to sudden loss within less than a decade. Therefore Hollywood stores all important movies on silver halide film, even if they were digitally taken.

Film capture still provides better dynamic range, higher sensitivity to light without image artifacts and the ability to capture long exposures of over 30 seconds. With the wide range of transparency and negative films on the market, the photographer has many choices to suit their own personal tastes in the form of color reproduction, resolution and film speed, etc. While digital post processing can replicate some specific film stock characteristics, this type of retouching takes considerable time and requires a high degree of experience. The portability of the Zeiss Ikon system, coupled with a choice of high quality films, puts the emphasis back into creative picture taking and away from the drudgery of digital post processing.

Photographers like this exist almost anywhere in the world, particularly in Japan, China, North America, and central Europe. We would like to give these people the right tool and that is the reason why we introduced -- besides a lot of digital products -- the ZI system.

Q: With Sony developing a large Carl Zeiss lens group for its new DSLR cameras, why would consumers need a rangefinder camera instead?

Compared with a SLR, a rangefinder camera is a very different photographic tool.

1. SLR viewfinders are darker than RF viewfinders, and they are darkest -- totally black -- when this is most objectionable: in the very moment of exposing the image receiver (film/sensor).

2. The moving mirror of an SLR causes mirror slap, which limits the resolving power of the lens + camera combination clearly below the level which the lens could achieve. RF cameras don’t have this drawback. And SLR cameras are louder due to the moving mirror.

3. SLR cameras and their lenses are bigger and heavier, almost twice that of a RF camera and lenses (see picture at right comparing a 2/35 ZM for Zeiss Ikon rangefinder cameras and the 2/35 ZF for Nikon SLRs). This allows you for example to take much more discrete pictures.

4. SLR cameras are much slower in terms of “shutter lag.” With a fast RF camera and their shutter lag of only 20 milliseconds, a photographer can precisely capture the very phase of a motif in motion which he or she likes most.

5. DSLR’s have very high power consumption and require hefty battery packs, while the Zeiss Ikon only takes two tiny batteries -- each the size of a pea -- which lasts for over 10,000 exposures. This has many benefits to the travel or nature photographer who may not have the ability to recharge batteries in the field or want to deal with the weight of carrying spare batteries.

 

Q: While Kyocera was manufacturing Zeiss lenses for the now discontinued Contax line of cameras, Carl Zeiss had a real presence in Japan supervising Zeiss lens quality. Does Zeiss have the same for the new Japanese made M mount lenses and Zeiss Ikon camera bodies?

Yes, Zeiss today has that same presence.

Q: Picture for picture, in what way will the new Zeiss camera and lenses show superiority over top level DSLRs and their best lenses, such as the Canon L lenses.

The Zeiss Ikon camera, being free of mirror slap, easily reaches twice the resolving power of even the best DSLR, be it handheld or from tripod.

1. Wide-angle photos taken with the Zeiss Ikon camera and Carl Zeiss ZM lenses are much sharper, crisper, more detailed than even the very best result from the very best SLR.

2. Those who have used the camera extensively have achieved photos with stunning details, previously not achievable on anything smaller than medium format.

3. Today films are available with much higher performance than digital sensors.

Q: There are rumors that Zeiss will eventually have its own digital rangefinder camera body that will accept the M mount lenses. True or false? Will it be Cosina-made? Full 24 x 36mm sensor?

At Carl Zeiss, we can imagine such a camera. But we feel that is not the right time to introduce such a camera now. Today digital technology is still developing fast and the initial value of a digital camera is lost in quite a short time. Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers and will therefore require a high level of maturity of products before we can justify to offer them to our customers. At the time we introduce such a camera we want to be sure that the owner has invested in a long term value.

1. It is much too early to determine a manufacturer for such a camera.

2. Full 24 x 36 is, as far as we see today, for a variety of reasons the preferred sensor size of most serious rangefinder photographers.

Q: Do you see the new Zeiss Ikon camera and lenses being sold as an additional system to a consumers' DSLR or as a substitute?

The Zeiss Ikon rangefinder camera can complement a SLR or DSLR very well for photographers who understand which viewfinder concept is best for which photographic idea. For example, telephoto and macro applications are the domain of the SLR. In wide-angle and most landscape photography the RF has the edge.

The experienced photographer therefore considers the Zeiss Ikon camera an addition to his toolkit rather than a substitute for a SLR/DSLR. But we also know photographers that work almost 100% with rangefinder cameras.

Q: In which parts of the world do you think sales of your new camera and lenses will be most successful?

1. We do know that many camera lovers in Japan want to own this camera or already do so, and we see increasing interest in other Asian countries such as China.

2. We also know that many photographers in North America want to use it for street photography and photojournalistic work.

3. In Europe, semi-professional architecture photographers, travel photographers and “photo poets” prefer it over much bigger, much slower, cumbersome, more expensive photographic tools.

4. We also see it being the ideal camera system for the photo purist. Regardless of film or digital capture, this is the kind of photographer who takes more time composing and creating the image than editing from a large selection and applying post processing techniques to "save" the image. These photographers are methodical in their approach and gravitate to the best equipment available to realize their creative vision.

Q: Why didn't Zeiss insist on a higher speed shutter mechanism instead of the same one that Cosina has been using for all its film SLRs and Bessa cameras for years?

At 1/2000s the shutter in the Zeiss Ikon camera is twice as fast as the one in a more expensive alternative, which has been accepted by the market for decades.

The shutter in the Zeiss Ikon camera is an improved version (longer service life, lower level of mechanical vibration, less noise) of a durable all metal device manufactured in industrial quantities by a Japanese shutter specialist, thus ensuring operational reliability, value for money, and availability for years to come.

 

Comments

[Philip Ryan]

Who are these European "photo poets?" And why hasn't Popular Photography done a feature about them recently?

[Lotus Man]

Dr. Scherle said, "Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers.."

So what happened to the huge investment made by all of Zeiss' Contax customers? Surely the sheer numbers of those customers far, far exceeds the numbers of Zeiss Ikon customers, and should correspondingly be primary concern to Carl Zeiss. What happened to protecting the investment of all your Contax custmers??

[a aa]

"Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers ......."

As a Contax RF, Contarex SLR and Contax SLR owner, I have strong doubts about this statement.

[rich815]

"Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers ......."

"As a Contax RF, Contarex SLR and Contax SLR owner, I have strong doubts about this statement."

BIG ditto. I still use my RX and my G2 even though they have been orphaned by the company who wants to "protect" my investment. Yeah right. Put that one in the Load of Crap file.

[Jeff Lorriman]

"Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers ......."

"As a Contax RF and Contax SLR owner, I have strong doubts about this statement."

"Put that one in the Load of Crap file."

Add me to this list. Wish I still had support for my Contax's. Just look at the history. Great and sad.

[catherine]

"Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers ......."

my n17-35, n24-85, n50, n85, n100, n70-300 and n400 are going to be orphans when my Contax ND eventually packs in. I feel my investment is completely unprotected, and think that these remarks are surreal. there is a guy making adapters for N glass to EOS cameras...that protects my investment more than the ZI non-digital red herring.

[Steve Shortridge]

re: "Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers ......."

Ditto, this being crap.

I have a G2 and 4 lenses. If you want to 'protect' me, then take them in trade at the price I paid for your new M-mount stuff. Otherwise stuff yourself...

[leafy]

re: "Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers ......."

yeah, right. How does Zeiss plan to "protect" my investments into the Contax SLR system?

[Walter Reichert]

There are many advantages to film and rangefinder cameras. Some are addressed in the article, some not. I have Leica camera and cannot imagine ever considering digital for primary capture. Yes, digital has its place, but is only one place not in all places at all times. For those who have not experienced the satifaction of using a rangefinger, their really missing a joy of photography. Maybe I'll buy a Zeiss Ikon too!!!!!

[slad]

Kyrocera made Contax cameras. Zeiss made the lenses. Kyrocera decided not to make cameras. Zeiss still makes lenses. If you have a beef it's with Kyrocera.

[ex Contax and Ex Zeiss customer]

RE: "If you have a beef it's with Kyrocera."

what a bullshit...

Zeiss owns the brand Contax. If they allowed Kyocera to stop the business, it was in their own interest. Just face reality.

Or do you really believe they made so bad contracts with Kyocera, that they had no alternatives as the brand owner?

Protecting investments? What a joke...

Maybe licence fees Zeiss gets from Kyocera now...

Will this be the same game with Zeiss Ikon or Sony Alpha? Taking our money and in 5 years closing the brand just to protect our investments?

[leafy]

It will not be the same for Sony Alpha or Zeiss Ikon (which is in Leica M-mount). Zeiss does not have control over both these systems. Even if they drop out of these 2, other manufacturers will continue to supply bodies and lenses for the systems. Not so with Contax CY/N.

[Matthias]

"Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers ......."

That seems to be a new business plan, since they didn't do that up to now!

But they seem to learn: Hopefully I will see a couple of revolutionary ZM-lenses for my 1947 (or so) built CONTAX S.
Hopefully in 2036 I will be able to buy a new lens for my CONTAX ST.

... if I will survive such long.

[Pieder]

"Carl Zeiss wants to protect the investment of its customers.."

They have abandoned the C/Y-mount, they have abandoned the G-mount, they have abandoned the N-mount.

I have a G-1 and a RX and a large dry cabinet full of Contax lenses that have lost most of their value because of their customer protection. I will abandon Zeiss.

[slad]

RE: what a bullshit

First and formost Zeiss is an optics manufacturer, yes they have some degree of control over the companies that make cameras for their lenses but when these companies find it no longer profitable and close down production you can't expect Zeiss to pick up the market. Camera manufacturing is competitive. Look at Minolta/Konica, Mamiya. Zeiss has been suppling lenses for Hasselblad for decades but if Hasselblad bellied up what would you expect Zeiss to do??

[disillusioned]

I don't expect them to necessarily "pick up the market". But they can make refranchising the contax brand a higher priority than retro ZI products already well served by Leica and Cosina. They can also refrain from talking about protecting investment...when their track record contradicts the statement. Fair enough that they want to make hay for now...but there a very many Contax owners who know only too well that the "protect investment2 rhetoric sucks.

[slad]

If Minolta/Konica and Mamiya couldn't make a go in the present marketplace what makes you think Kyrocera would have? Zeiss will do best as a maker of fine lenses for a specialized market. The fact that their lenses utilize the Leica M and Nikon mount attest to that.

[jaap]

It is rather surprising that the impending digital Leica M8 is not mentioned once, not even as a rival.

[marcel]

He is obviously trying to rationalize a market. Leica has missed the boat so many times in the last 25 plus years, it is a miracle that they are still in business. I think only a very small percentage of real pros use their cameras in the field. They carved out a niche market for themselves, their main customers are people with high income that appreciate the thought of having a superior camera and collectors.

As for protecting their customers investment, that is just some condescending crap - if they really wanted to protect their customers investment they should have introduced a real alternative to the current Digital SLR line up, so that those of us who are still holding on to our R and M lenses could use them in todays working environment.

[Volker Hett]

It was Kyocera who bought Yashica who had a deal with Zeiss to use the brand name Contax.
And Kyocera stopped the production of those camera bodies which left Zeiss with lenses for an abandoned camera mount. So they start building lenses for two very popular mounts which didn't change much (Nikon F) or not at all (Leica M), and not to forget they make some for M42 mount, too.
Since they have good ties to Sony they expand to the Minolta mount Konica-Minolta abandoned just recently and which would be gone without Sony.

So do what I do and tell Kyocera why you don't buy a Kyocera Laserprinter, but don't blame Zeiss. They don't own the blueprints for Yashica and Kyocera Kameras, they just provided a well known name and very good lenses.

And to protecting my investment, there may be a different understandig what that means in germany.
We invest in a tool and if it's well made it will take very long until it is not usable anymore. The ROI is not in the resale value but in what you produce with this tool.

My Zeiss Contessa from 1962 is still fine, pretty good investment made by my grandfather.

And since so many want a body to use Zeiss Contax RF lenses on it, those must have been a very good investment as well, they can't be much younger than 50 years now.

Just my 0.4 eurocents :-)

[Ellis Vener]

"Zeiss has been suppling lenses for Hasselblad for decades but if Hasselblad bellied up what would you expect Zeiss to do??"

I expect them to keep scrambling because Hasselblad has already discontinued manfacturing the square format "V" camera and has moved on to the equally fine Fujinon optics for the H series of cameras.

[Raw]

There seem to be a lot of people posting here that don't understand anything about business or who don't even understand the difference between a lens manufacturer and a camera manufacturer. Do you people realise what a real pile of crap is, paying thousands for a digital camera only for it to be way beyond obsolete in a few years. Oh hang on, let me get angry at Michelin because Ford stopped making such and such a car. What planet are you people from!!?? Zeiss make Superior quality optics that last longer than the cameras they go on, now that IS protecting an investment, in the product you bought, which is not a camera, it is a lens, say it now, L-E-N-S. Why do you all need protecting from cameras and lenses that still work!!! Not supported? What, the lens manufacture doesn't service your camera, shame on them!! But still you feel better now you got all angry about nothing! Now Zeiss make a camera it will probably last longer than any other camera on the market, excluding Leica.

[enrique racpan]

oh yea, then buy back my rts's and g2 if zeiss wants to protect contax users.

[brainer]

It is hard to know where to start with the list of fallacies in this article.

10,000 exposures in the field is 278 rolls of film. Alternatively, I can take 10 pre-charged batteries for my Canon 5D's and 2 or 3 compact flash cards. The batteries and cards are cheaper, smaller, lighter, and reusable as well as remaining undamaged by x-ray and heat. What's easier to find in the wild: a good film shop or an electrical socket? I once took 200 rolls of 120 on a trip. The cost of film and development alone would buy a competitive digital outfit today.

I have used 3200 iso 135 rollfilm extensively. My 5D's destroy it in delivered image quality.

With the Canon 5D, 1DsMkII, and Leica DMR, film is now losing on cost, practicality AND quality. I really don't understand why Zeiss is sticking its head in the sand over this. 12 iso film is not the answer. Few other companies have so much to gain from the increased effective resolution of 16bit sensors. Look at all the Canon / 21mm Distagon users. I have bought 15 Contax C/Y lenses in the last year.

I hope Scherle's fantasy market analysis is disingenuous. Sony is not making competitive sensors. Even if they eventually do, do you think Zeiss will persuade them to produce N-mount bodies? It is all a great shame, and a missed opportunity because Zeiss has failed to capitalise on a market in which lens quality has just doubled in importance. If Bo-ming of Conurus can reverse engineer a Contax N to EOS converter, why couldn't Zeiss? After all, Sigma does it.

[Riis]

I use the Zeiss ZF 50mm 1.4 on my Nikon D200 and it produces beautiful images. The combination of a digital camera with manual focus and great glass makes the DSLR experience slower and more enjoyable. At some point, one must choose a format and workflow and master that. Beautiful images come from cameras and lenses pointed at interesting subjects by an artist. Like they say on Project Runway: "Make it work". While an interesting conversation, this thread begins to sound like a Leica user group with PMS. For me, I look forward to purchasing some of the new ZF lenses that have just come out and making wicked-good photographs that I can process in Lightzone and print beautiful pictures and show to many, many interested people.

[dupodup]

Funny battle, who to blame Kyocera or Zeiss.

On my side I will blame Zeiss.

They clame to be a lens maker but when comes time to service the lens my N50 was refused by zeiss and sent to Kyocera for repair through a dummy agent who has told me fairy tells and stupide excuse during 6 MONTHS!!!!

In between my ND body and my 17-35 need services I send it straight ahead to Kyocera in JP. All has been serviced for free (taken under warranty)and I get my stuff back 15 business days after sending it (when you know that UPS takes 4 Business day to deliver rfrom Paris) ie they only keep the stuff in their hands 7 business days!!!!

I am more than grateful for kyocera and their engament to service their product andn= Zeiss product up to March 2015! They do, Zeiss do not.

Eric.

[Robert Chow]

Scherle must be amazed that anyone would opt for an SLR over a rangefinder.

[A Koshy]

After observing Zeiss over the past several years, I believe they are stuck in a bygone era. Just reading the above interview has convinced me that they will continue to harken back to the almost-dead era of "film", until they have no more legs to stand on and will either wind up operations or will be bought out by some investors. The new buyers hopefully will have no qualms about dragging a reluctant Zeiss to the modern era. But I do agree with him that current technology will not allow the introduction of a sensor that will cover the entire 35mm imaging circle, into a rangefinder, and meet the exceptional quality standards that one expects from Zeiss...but to embark on a digital diatribe and promote film was being a bit behind the times.

In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy my Zeiss binoculars - 7x45 from the Nightowl series and the 20x60s professional.

[William Sommerwerck]

Dear Burt;

We haven't spoken in a few years. I'd like to talk with you about the abysmal, contemptible quality of user documentation, and what (perhaps) Pop Photo might do to improve things. You can get in touch with me at grizzledgeezer@comcast.net.

Thanks!

[william j cody]

so, everyone is unhappy that things change. cameras and lenses come and go. hasselblad continues to make the v series cameras, despite all amateur user expectations. this is because professional users support this format. also the h series is not holding up too well.
film? it will be readily available 100 years from now. don't believe it, go ask fuji.
digital?
can't decide on a format
can't decide on a capture method
can't use them in serious inclement weather
can't keep the image sensor's clean
and perhaps the most important issue is the incredibly short life and cluttered "features" all digital imaging bodies now posess.
it is a dumbing down of making pictures.
really think you're good.
take 20 rolls of tri x and one camera, lens and no light meter.
let me know how your photos come out.
then, we can talk about light.
cody

[Ainuddin Mohamad]

I love most of the Leica M cameras but they are beyond my budget.

The most I can do is to look at pictures of Leica M cameras and pics taken using them.

I wonder whether there is club of owners of Leica cameras in Malaysia.

[FrankG]

Wow! The Zeiss Ikon seems like the one for me. Which one's better, the black one or the silver one?